My views, observations, questions about everything in this world ....and that country they call Egypt.

05 September 2006

A Logical Puzzle In Islam

a. Freedom of Religion is the right that everyone has to choose any religion/belief system or lack thereof.

b. Islam calls for the death penalty for muslims that renounce Islam (per hadiths in Sahih El Bukhari).

From 'a' and 'b', Freedom of Religion and Islam cannot consistently coexist.

Does anyone have an answer to this riddle?

47 Comments:

Blogger AZ said...

seems u r dedicating this blog to attack el islam lol
boss ya sidi i tell you
its simply that u have all the right not to join islam... nobody is gonna kill you for that... as a respectable religion it doesnt need some fools to join it for the wrong reasons....its fair enough that one should read enough about a new thing befor he decides to join it... its just that religions r not toys to play with for a while then throw it, and go looking for a new one

10:58 PM

 
Blogger Blacklander said...

What clears it up to me is probably the context. It's asserted in the very concepts that true intentions are what counts, so keeping people within the boundaries of the religion by the sword is -in effect- trying to deceive God, which is blasphemy.
I think it has to do with apostasy wars in the early days of Islam, so logically I think this verdict should be obsolete by now.

11:53 PM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

AZ,
Did you read the post at all? 'Cause your response has nothing to do with what I said.

blacklander,
It looks like the consensus by Muslim scholars is that this verdict is not obsolete.

1:22 AM

 
Blogger Яαgιи Яαvєи said...

AZ's response seemed pretty clear to me.

1:39 AM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

Raven,
I didn't say it was unclear, thought it might be, I just said it's not relevant. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

1:54 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, it might be clear, but it still doesn't explain the rule being imposed on those who were born into a religion they never chose or read about to start with. That of course without even mentioning that people do have the right to change their mindset, and thus reconsider what they one day believed.

2:00 AM

 
Blogger AZ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:33 AM

 
Blogger AZ said...

well um the one whos sorry cos u see it this way
anyways
understanding anything depends on where u stand.... the way you deal with islam is not the way of someone who wants to understand... you -sorry to say so- just blindly attacking it... u ll never gonna get anywhere this way, cos u dont want to understand what islam is, you just wanna prove it incorrect, unfair and the source of all the shit we live-in in this country and maybe el countries le mogawra :D
and anonymous soul: if u stop persuming that its an unfair religion and neutrialize its intentions (neutrialize mesh bttkteb kidh walla eh ana nesit)and start studying it correctly from the right sources, those who r with and who r agains, u ll reach what u r seeking if u r seeking anything.... use ur mind cos nobody will think for you... do your own thinking

2:38 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear AZ,

You advised me to do my own thinking, and I believe that the questions I introduced were doing nothing but that.

And please don't give me too much lip service about my intentions, assumptions about what I know or do not know or what sources may I have come across. I dunno why it always ends up about me rather than the argument at hand. I was restling myself not to come up with an arrogant reply, but rest assured, I know well enough about Islamic theology to teach it, not that it's our topic at the moment.

If you can answer my questions, you're more than welcome to throw in your two cents, if not, please do not insult my intteligence nor that of other visitors talking nonsense.

3:37 AM

 
Blogger Jannah said...

Nothing's much of a riddle in Islam if there's knowledge underneath. However, every thing in Islam is a riddle if that knowledge is absent.

I happened to have that same question, but instead of publishing it on a blog where the chance of getting the correct answer would be a bit higher than zero, I looked in the right place- Books.

So I digged in and read that there are 2 types of renouncers:
*Type 2: One who minds his own business, doesn't become a muslim anymore, finds peace elsewhere and LEAVES the other muslims ALONE.

*Type 2: One who after renouncing puts all his efforts into playing with muslims' minds to convince them into renouncing too causing what we all know as "fetna". He gets advice to leave them alone more than once. It disobeyed, and the fetna increases, then he's called for death.

That however, doesn't happen now merely because our countries don't apply Islam rules in their government anyways.

I hope you got the answer you were looking for, MC.
Have a nice day!

3:47 AM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

Anon @ 3:37 is not me by the way!!!

jannah,
The hadiths don't say if he/she is type 1 spare him and if he/she is type 2 then kill him. Please provide your sources if you have any.

4:19 AM

 
Blogger Insomniac said...

well seems too late to add anything.. but here it goes.. for all i know the first sentence is about tolerating other people for whatever belief or faith they have and respect their choice without prejudice.. (for example how non-muslims used to pay jeziah i guess).. as for the second phrase i think u need to wait for jannah's refs.

i can see the contradiction but i don't think it really is.. after all renouncing does cause fetna (not just in islam) and u may notice that feta has gotten humanity to living hells so far

5:30 AM

 
Anonymous Blacklander said...

The question is, how literal do we need religions to be?
And if believers do not stick to the verdicts of life, why should we allow the verdicts of death?
Life has a higher precedence, until we die at least.

6:23 AM

 
Blogger shlemazl said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6:36 AM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

Shlemazl,
You had a comment on this post but at the end you linked to a totally unrelated topic on your blog. I'm sorry but I have to delete your comment. You can post it again without links to unrelated posts.

7:13 AM

 
Blogger shlemazl said...

My comment and link were related to your post. It dealt with the hypocricy that results from the lack of freedom of religion.

It's your blog and it is your right to remove anyones comments. It is my right not to bother with this site.

7:25 AM

 
Anonymous Grafx said...

NO religion that prevents you from trying to find the Truth is a good religion... a religion that allows for people to be killed for what they believe in differently is a death trap and a password for Hell...


DOes this religion preach Love? God's Love?.... if so...then its directly contradicting itself if it allows for people to be killed for something like this...

Killing ANYONE, especially someone who leaves a religion and joins another one...is a childish tantrum and is that of an obsessive, jealous and possesive nature.

and thats VERY wrong..not to mention.. a sin.

10:09 AM

 
Blogger AZ said...

dear anonymous
sorry honestly i didnt mean to offend you, and sorry again if my reply sounded either arrogant or agreesive... its just that i have seen enough to have an image about how ppl build certain images about islam... u might be an exception though i dont deny, um not here to juge either u or anyone else, but believe me i v bn through these discussions for years now and i end up more convinced,and i have learned that its totally useless to give ppl answers to their questions cos simply um not the one to afty or afassar... if you are sick you go to a doctor (thats an exampe i dont mean that u r sick :) )... if you wanna know something ask someone who knows about it.... recovering from flu doesnt make you a doctor does it? *wink*... i do have answers, but they are totally mine, i came up with after long years of reading and stuf, but yet i cant claim them to be correct answers 100%, they suit me fine but they might not be the best way to explain things to other so i fear that they might mislead others, thats why um so reserved abotu my opinions n religion.... and i still to study and do learn... yemoot el em3allem wal ayet3allem :)
things come to those who want and those who wait... ppl on blogs and forums r not the best way to learn cos they can distract you easily and give you alot of personal opinions that dont have to be neccessarily correct

11:15 AM

 
Blogger Gun Barrel Kalashnikov said...

MC, I think freedom of religion is about the choice when it comes to stay on one religion or join Islam... Once you are in, it should be clear that it is not some kind of... I don't know, say a toy people play with... When a person joins Islam he gotta be convinced, if not then he is a hypocrite from the start and it is not that Islam forced hypocricy through its rules....

And man I got a question here, I think you are a muslim if I remember correctly ya3ni, are you even convinced of being so or is it just due to having to because of certain regimes? Cause I see you attack the whole religion thing too much and I gotta be honest and I am sorry I mean no offense here, but comeon most of your opinions are totally opposing to religious values...

And again I am sorry, I just wanna know the point behind this...

11:44 AM

 
Blogger Jannah said...

BRAAAAAVO 3aleeeky ya A z!! (the sick go to dr part) It's almost impossible getting correct info from a blog, unless you just wanna arise suspicians without really getting anywhere useful.

Mechanical crowds, I apologize for answering your question if you were just ridiculing!

Oh about my sources, I honestly don't remember which "Fiqh" book I read it in, it was ages ago. But one last try, MC,if you DO really wanna know the sources for mere knowledge then I'm more than willing to try & dig em up for you.

1:21 PM

 
Blogger Sherif Nagib said...

I don't have the sufficient theological knowledge to talk this over, But I think
this article
might help a bit.

3:00 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Godfather and Raven are probably two brain washed muslims, they think with their asses and hide behind a foreign language! Shit that's sick!

READ BEFORE YOUR REPLY ASSHOLES!

9:39 PM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

Insomniac @ 5:30,
Freedom of religion is freedom of religion, let's not redefine it.

shlemazl @ 7:25,
How is the higher rate sexual perversions in Islamic countries, your topic, anywhere related to Islam & Freedom of religion?

grafx @ 10:09,
We are trying to have a civilized discussion. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.

AS @ 11:15,
I liked this comment a lot, it made sense. The underlying assumption that you are making, though, is that non-believers are the 'sick' and believers are the 'healthy'. I am not saying it's the other way around, I'm just saying that you made this assumption.
I agree that forums and blogs might have inaccurate information, but at least they lead to accurate sources. Trust me, I don't take information I read on such sites for granted.

Godfather @ 11:44,
Again Freedom of religion is Freedom of religion, let's not redefine it. If you are a muslim, for example, freedom of religion is having the right to renoune your Islam and go worship the sun for example.

jannah @ 1:21,
When did I redicule you??

It would be unfair to ask you to do anything for me. Do whatever you want. I just think that statements without sources lose their point.

sherif nagib @ 3:00,
Neither do I. Thanks for the article. From what I gather, though, is a minority view (as the author acknowledges). This is from wiki:

"All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed."

These are the four major schools of Sunni law (Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali), and Shia law. If anyone has a source that says those schools say otherwise please bring it forth.

9:41 PM

 
Blogger Cairene said...

Well,
First I have to say, I was really happy with the question and it was intersting to read some of the answers. I think the "redda" was rather a political movement, and that's why the "kill'em all" came in context. Like Blacklander, I think that this part is not in context anymore to be applied. Why do they still apply it, that's a different question - who're the beneficiaries and what not. But then again, I am no expert.

10:03 PM

 
Blogger Яαgιи Яαvєи said...

A Message to an anonymous:

Alright... here we go..

First of all, I don't think I even shared an opinion here, but I appreciate the recognition.

Second of all, I will completely ignore the very small and anonymous being you are and pretend that you're a fart floating through thin air.

If you have a problem with my person, I'd appreciate you sending me an email and perhaps a phone number and we can discuss this like true gentlemen offline where your identity can be revealed.

I'm sorry I took the time and space out of this post, but it seems that something I said or did pissed a little kid so bad that they hide behind an anonymous identity and have my name involved in a meaningless comment.

If you've got a prick, then show it.. and if you're a cunt then go fuck yourself.

Excuse my French, ladies and gents.

12:06 AM

 
Blogger Gun Barrel Kalashnikov said...

MC, this is not a question to be asked to the cyber public and experts in religion who probably do not know that much about religion, that including me, cause we are no experts, I for one never write about religion, Let's stop this recognition quest from touching sensitive topics...

And MC one last thing, you define things, people do, religion gives a definition, I will go with religion and not people... You don't believe in it, research how to let go of it without getting hurt.... That's it I guess..

12:06 AM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

Cairene,
I hope you're right.

Godfather,
Let's get one thing straight without offending you: I will post about whatever my heart desires. If I want to post about nanotechnology, I will. If I want to post about the dirt that gathers under toe nais, I will. If I want to post about religious scriptures, I will.
I somewhat agree that blogs are not the best to research, but they are not completely useless. For example, sherif nagib linked to an article with a different point of view.
And this is not a recognition quest, as you can see, I am hardly getting any recognition. This is more of a truth quest.

1:02 AM

 
Blogger Grafxgurl said...

oh, i guess what i said wasnt civilized enough..lol ill just go back to my cave then. :)

5:33 AM

 
Anonymous Debbie said...

I don't have the answer to your question, because I cannot see how they two can live together. Unless Islam goes through a change, modernizes, whatever. It must if it wants to join the civilized world.

Thanks for your visit and comment at Right Truth. Come and visit again, our door is always open.

7:15 AM

 
Blogger Zed said...

Thanks for this post. I was just pondering the dilemna of hadiths with a friend. Why do muslims believe in hadiths anyway? I don't get it.

7:27 AM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

grafxgurl,
That's not what I meant. I just disagreed with the use of labellings such as Truth, good religion... etc. But you know you are welcomed here anytime.

z,
Muslims that do not believe in hadiths are called Quranic Muslims. Arguments against such a belief system can be found on that page too.

7:39 AM

 
Blogger N said...

Awel mara asma3 3an Quranic muslims, quite interesting, thanks.

11:04 AM

 
Blogger Cynthia Rae said...

Just wanted to stop in and say Ciao. I do not have an answer to this riddle though...

Will be going to Egypt for the first time this year. Any must sees other than the usual tourist stuff?
Cyn

12:01 PM

 
Blogger Sand-E Sez said...

I'm thinking the way you've defined things are what cause the inability for them to coexist. The freedom to choose no religion would technically change premise 'a' to simply freedom of choice. Secondly, since Islam encompasses and recognizes all religions the only time according to what you’ve presented, the death penalty would apply is where religion is lacking all together.
Seeing as how lack of faith and religion are things that don't go hand in hand your issue is solved.
You either believe or don't believe mutual exclusivity at that point is completely understood and justified.

12:45 PM

 
Blogger Will E. said...

Lovely topic, but the riddle itself is flawed. Who says 'a' is correct? Who says people have the right to choose their faith? But even if they have the right to choose their faith, what gives them the right to change their minds?
'a' is just a modern notion that they want you to believe. In truth you don't have the right to choose where you're from, who your parents are, what your color is and what your faith is.. That's the answer to your riddle.. No freedom of religion, no real freedom anyway.

Let's not kid ourselves... people don't have freedom of religion though they oughta, and the answer to the riddle is that they can't both coexist.. you have to choose between 'a' and 'b' but the problem is that people spend their whole lives reconciling between a million a's and a million b's.

"A faith that collides with the truth is not worth many regrets"... the question is.. which part is the truth? It's a choice..

5:42 PM

 
Anonymous religion of pieces said...

Logical Puzzle????? There's no place for logic in Islam!

There's a very insightful comment by 'Columba' at
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012989.php#comments

"It's significant that most other belief systems (including secular ones) base their truth claims on ... well, truth. Someone converting to the belief system would do so on the grounds that the system had somehow proven itself to be a valid way of looking at everything.

Islam's call to conversion is entirely different; it's based on power. Not just the threat "convert or die," but even the claim that "Islam is stronger," a claim we've been hearing more frequently these days. Not that it's true, but that it holds power.

There's little attempt to convince intellectually, but rather a call to join the winning army: might makes right. And that's a powerful appeal to people already inclined toward arrogance and violence."

In other words, the ability for logical thought is not a requirement for becoming a Muslim.

9:17 PM

 
Blogger still breathing said...

e da! sayeb el nas teshtem fi ba3d and u only delete irrelevant comments?

5:37 AM

 
Blogger MechanicalCrowds said...

Cynthia,
When I visit a country I usually like to get to know the locals a little bit. But obviously you'd be looking for high-class locals to mingle with... so maybe try a few bars/clubs. Also, see if you can catch a live band.

sand-e sez,
The freedom to choose no religion would technically change premise 'a' to simply freedom of choice.
Emm... No. It's still freedom of religion.

Secondly, since Islam encompasses and recognizes all religions the only time according to what you’ve presented, the death penalty would apply is where religion is
lacking all together.

Emm... No again. Islam does NOT recognize all religions. It does not recognize pagans for example. So the death penalty would apply if a muslim renounces Islam and goes to worship the Sun.

Seeing as how lack of faith and religion are things that don't go hand in hand your issue is solved.
The right to not believe in any religion is part of freedom of religion. If you go to Article 18 of the ICCPR you will see that the definition without a doubt allows for the lack of religion.

will e.,
First you said the riddle is flawed and then you agreed with the conclusion!!
Who says 'a' is correct? Who says people have the right to choose their faith?
'a' is a premise. The whole point of the riddle is to examine whether or not freedom of religion and Islam can coexist without contradicting themselves.

In truth you don't have the right to choose where you're from, who your parents are, what your color is and what your faith is..
The first three cannot rights because they are impossible to choose. The last one however, you can choose for yourself and is internationally recognized as a basic human right.

Let's not kid ourselves... people don't have freedom of religion though they oughta, and the answer to the riddle is that they can't both coexist..
Well, thats the conclusion of the riddle ;). The rest of your comment has a few possible meanings, so I will disregard it.

religion of pieces,
Your comment is not logical at all and is just full of labellings. Comments like that are not going to help your case. Here is one example:

It's significant that most other belief systems (including secular ones) base their truth claims on ... well, truth.
First of all, how can you just say that other belief systems are based on truth? That is why they are called religions, because they require a leap of faith... The choice to believe in something that is not proven. It's not science.
Second of all, are you aware that Christianity contradicts athiesm, and that Judaism contradicts Buddhism for example? How can ALL of them be based on truth??

still breathing,
I deleted shlemazl's comment because I felt it was spam. He linked to a post on his blog about the sexual interests of 'islamic' countries. I just thought that was spam, which is something that I delete.

8:28 PM

 
Anonymous lexcen said...

Answer to riddle: When Islam is subservient to a higher authority ie Civil Government, then there will be freedom of religion. Remember that the separation of Church and State was a significant step towards progress in Western society. The Catholic church for example, prosecuted Galileo. All religions must subjugate themselves to a higher authority or else there is no freedom of thought, no freedom of religion and no progress.

9:53 PM

 
Blogger Will E. said...

mechanicalcrowds, I'm glad you agree with me that your riddle's conclusion is that they can't coexist, and hence the riddle is without a twist and so that's why I say that it is flawed, there's nothing to solve, they just can't coexist no matter how you ornament it with philosophy. In the world of discrete math, to say that both statements are true results in a contradiction...

You see, the freedom of religion is a recognized basic human right but it's not recognized everywhere, not practically anyway. It sounds appealing but in some parts of the world there's too much to lose, some people lose family and friends, others lose their lives.

I think people subscribing to Islam are the quickest to anger, not because they're the most zealous but perhaps because most have foregone their right to freedom of faith. It is not conceivable to go down a path of doubt.

Islam stands out cause lots of other religions can coexist with premise 'a'.

I thought of a new answer though, on how they can coexist. You have the right to choose whatever faith you like, and if it's Islam you have to bear the consequences.The consequences being that you die if you decide to renounce it. So therefore, you have the freedom to choose your faith, Islam doesn't even say that you can't renounce it, it only informs you that the penalty will be death if you do.. So I guess this way they ACTUALLY CAN COEXIST...tadaa!!

So maybe premise 'a' should include the clause 'without dying for their choice' to make the riddle more accurate, but we'll assume the right to live is an implicit premise.

(okay, now don't tell me that first I said there was no twisted answer and at the end claimed one, cause I was being sarcastic in that second answer)

2:37 AM

 
Blogger AZ said...

mechanicalcrowds... i dodnt assume anyone ot be sick or others to be healthy... my example was abotu el doctor's use not the patient's classification... and i already mentioned so between brackets 3shanma7dehs yftker i men eno sick cos h doesnt believe n what i believe in.... :)

4:45 AM

 
Blogger Puppeteer said...

Throw the Sunna away and read take Coran as a synthesis book of mixed religions. And shoot the ulema.

11:14 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not an islamic scholar, but it seems to me that if someone joins a religion that is the fullment of Islamic prophesy then this would negate any comments on the Surah.

Secondly, I don't know if you consider the hadith the same as the Qur'an in authority. I thought the hadiths were commentary, not binding as though they were written by the Prophet.

Thirdly, If the purpose of religion is to unite people together and it in fact drives people apart, then it is better to be without religion, no?

Fourth, you mean that someone who says they believe in the Prophet and yet break any other law they feel like breaking, and yet they would be executed according to this hadith? The more I think about b. The more I wish to know about the hadith and the writer of the hadith and how it came to be accepted with authority. You know people can write anything they want and some people will belive them.

Written by Edo River

3:13 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

please Go read Bilo's postings regarding this topic.

Edo River rising.

2:59 PM

 
Blogger Solitude said...

that's not a riddle,..
well simpy, "you're free to embrace -or not- any religion, and no one has got the right to force you into joining his own belief, BUT, you're not free to renounce Islam after choosing it"..clear ?

3:57 AM

 
Blogger cairoflock said...

MC, I don't have an answer for you about this riddle, but I have always viewed religion as a very personal and subjective thing. If you don't like that hadith, don't believe in it, and guess what: hadiths were transmitted by word-of-mouth, meaning that even sahih bukhari and sahih muslim aren't 100% accurate. Bascially what I'm saying is, if you're going to adopt Islam as your religion, then use the one and only reliable source, the Quran. If you're having difficulty interpreting something, then you can turn to the hadith and the fatwas and decide whether you feel the interpretation is logical or not. If I shoot someone for renouncing Islam and Allah asks me on judgement day "didn't I tell you in the Quran not to kill another human being" somehow I don't think "they told me to do it" will get me off the hook.

4:14 PM

 
Anonymous john N. said...

i just wanna say dis completely is NOT da ONLY thing 2 b discussed in islam ..
just der'r too many other thngs and they cant b discussed acurately and fairly here ..
--> and take my words if "al-sharee3a" were passed down in da egyptian law u ll all no that 7ad al redda "al qatl" 4 example .. and too other thngs really exist in islam .. but if ppl who wrote sm comment here no b4 such thngs do exist in islam and this is ok 4 dem .: i m reAlly sorry about u all and ithink u need to rearrange ur humanity meanings and human rights' ones in ur mind..
i bet if any of u tried really to understnd other religions fairly frm der original sorces .. u r just afraid completely as u afraid 2 discuss ur opinions here ..

i ave bn too long in my post i nope .. maybe dats why i ave written above " i just wanna say" lol!
bye 4 now
life's gd ! LG .. live it

john.N.

5:45 PM

 

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