Where Is The Line?

Hmm... wow... I was advised that this comment that I posted a while ago has caused a stir with some Egyptian bloggers. But first I would like to respond to Raven's comment to My 2 Agorot On Israel. The quotes are straight from Raven's comment.

1. One shouldn't be smart really in order to grasp the idea that something doesn't fit there, that they couldn't possibly go to war just for three soldiers. I mean, yeah, I could wear an israeli shoe for a sec here and think of how sorry I am for those soldiers, but I would definitely feel worse and my appetite for revenge will dig lower and lower into the ground until I can no longer see it once I realize that there are by far more lives at risk.

What did I say? I said going to war for the soldiers does not make sense for any side. The only difference between me and you here is that I am not so sure they did not start war at least partially to rescue the soldiers. The reason I'm not so sure is the cease-fire talk, which was my 2nd point. Plus, Israel is known to care a lot about their soldiers/civilians and go to extremes for that. I said they should stop pretending if they are not going to war for that reason. Which is probably true.

2. " If you don't finish the job now, it will come back stronger later on." - So basically, this is double standards. They're either in it for the soldiers or in it to be rid of Hizbullah once and for all. Your point here falls in between your opinion and your theory. I don't know if you know what Hizbullah is about. I don't know how old you were in the year 2000 when Hizbullah kicked Israel out of Lebanon for good... and I don't think knowing your age and your knowledge level about the subject counts as an arguement here, but I think that you should seriously consider going back to books or factual online sources to read about Hizbullah and how they were the only Arabic force to defeat Israel... and no.. Egypt '73 doesn't count.

Where is the double standard? All I'm saying is that the cease-fire talk is not a good move, since it implies the war is largely for the soldiers, which is not justified. Follow?

About Hezbollah kicking Israel out of Lebanon. This is the way I see it: If you are walking on the street and suddenly some gang starts attacking you, then this serial killer comes and saves your life. Does that mean that he is no longer a killer? The core of our disagrement is that I view Hezbollah as a terrorist group, as murderers, and of course you do not see it that way. Did you know that they bombed US Embassy in Lebanon 1983 killing 63, and Israeli Embassy in Argentina 1992 killing 29? To me these are not acts of war but terrorism. If you think these actions are justified by Islam though, that is another discussion.

And just for my curiosity, why doesn't '73 count?

3. "Israel is a civilized country and should exercise reason. Hezbollah, on the other hand, don't claim to be civilized and hence are not expected to show any reason." - That civilized country you are referring to started this mess by bombing Ghaza and the West Bank, killing innocent people, civilians... and please don't throw self defense in my face because I don't think that it'd be a valid excuse... on the other hand, the moment we acknowledge those acts as self defense the world will turn into one big circus where people can each carry a gun and start shooting. I'd suggest you start with a squirt gun. Hezbollah on the other hand, kidnapped a couple soldiers in an attempt to ask for cease fire on Ghaza and the WB and to negotiate the release of some Palistenian prisonars in Israel in exchange for those three soldiers. If you can't see that as civilized, then what is really? Blogging?!

I said Israel as a civilized country should exercise reason. Civilized does not mean fair, which is something I don't claim Israel to be. I agree with what you said about self-defence, it's not a blank cheque. The reason I despise Hezbollah is not kidnapping the soldiers, but their ideology. To me, kidnapping the soldiers might have be justified had it been committed by the Lebanese army for example. Like I said, to me Hezbollah are terrorist extremists and criminals. A criminal might help you fight an enemy, but he/she is still a criminal.

I am gonna give you a link to this short article. I suggest you be sitting down when you read it though :).

"2- Civilized meaning democratic, organized, advanced, educated people, good health care... etc etc . Please don't let me compare it to Egypt. They have done so in less than 60 years." quoting MechanicalCrowds. - So basically it's ok to trade an external value system if you have a perfectly fitting internal value system? If I provide good health care and democracy to my people would it be ok for me to shove a big middle finger into everyone else's faces?

No it's not ok. I never said it was ok. I was just explaining to the blogger what I meant by civilized.

And you're giving me Egypt?! Egypt did fail in providing infrastructure, technical and moral. It did fail in making us follow beliefs and accomplish dreams. It did fail in acknowledging true talent and providing a viable democratic system for us to abide by. It did fail, throughout the generations, in creating a leader for us to follow. They were all bullshitters, they all followed a fairy tale, a shadow of the invisible. Nasser brainwashed us into thinking we were better than the rest of them, all of them. Nasser created the Germany that Hitler once created, a country so lost in its own self recognition... but Egypt still stands its ground.

Man, you're harsher than me on Egypt! The brainwash is still there I believe... We are so sure we are better than everyone else.

Egyptians still know what's right and what's wrong. Sure most of them believe everything they're being told on the news, at work, school, at cafes where they smoke the inevitable shisha that's only managed to bring this country's youth to the ground along with our west-like clubbing experience where X seems the only god worth believing in, but Egyptians still have it in them.

We know what's right and what's wrong? That's a bold statement which I disagree with. Nobody knows what's right and what's wrong for sure. That is why poeple argue, to decide what is right and what is not. That is why you and I are arguing now. You probably didn't mean it in the literal sense, right?
People are free to choose if they want to smoke shisha's or not, to go clubbing or not, to worship 'X' or to worship god. If they choose to go a certain path, they will harvest what they planted. It is their freedom.

I must say that those who rebel against things only do it to feel charismatic, the all natural high, and most of them do it just in an attempt to follow a Tyler Durden example they once saw in a Hollywood picture, but there are still people who believe.. NONE OF THEM wants to give in.. and NONE OF THEM will give up when the time comes. War is not always the answer. Egypt failed utilizing Sadat's plan in using Camp David as a truce, a 25 year long term plan to re-create an army that could once say NO without having to worry if they're gonna find out that we have no knights in shiny armors to back us up.

There are still people who believe in what? None of them want to give in to what?

So you wanted us to spend 25 years building an army? Egypt is not that rich of a country... I mean look at the economy now, imagine that minus billions and billions that would have been spent on the military. Egypt cannot afford to spend anymore on the army, let's feed the people first. I hope we just all live in peace and stop spending on war. You know... move on.

"I think the enemies of Israel, Hezbollah, want War. They will always prefer War untill their last breath so long as they don't get the land. They would rather have War than accept the existance of Israel and live together in Peace." - and thissss is based on.. what exactly? On the fact that they stood their ground in defending their land until the year 2000? until today? What exactly is your source of information man? enlighten me? MAD magazine? tried that man.. didn't work. I ended up eating pizza and playing video games until the new millenium marked the dawn of a new era.

This is not based on anything specific, other than my personal understanding of how the extremist mind works. I can't prove it to you, it's just my opinion, and you have the right to disagree. But honestly, you don't agree with this statement: "They would rather have War than accept the existence of Israel and live together in Peace." ?

Funny though, I think this war has taught me so much about the world. It's taught me this.. Life among the Arabs ain't really worth it. You never know who's worth your trust.

If we ever go to war together, please don't watch my back man, cos I sure won't trust you enough...

... and I sure won't be watching yours.

Oh don't be so troubled, not too many Arabs agree with me. If you are out there, Arabs that agree with me, say something :).

If we go to war man, I'll be watching your back anyways... for Egypt's sake.