My 2 Agorot On Israel
I can't say I'm 100% with Israel. But I am definitely 100% against Hezbollah. I agree with what Israel is trying to do, and I hope they do it, I just don't think they are doing it in the best way. Here are a few points.
First, is the point about rescuing the soldiers. I sure hope they are not going to war just to rescue 3 soldiers. I do appreciate human life, and I understand that these soldiers have lives and families. But how many people have to pay the price in order to save those soldiers? Israel alone has already lost 24 people so far in this war. Are those 3 soldiers worth more or what? And if Israel is going to war for reasons other than rescuing the soldiers they should say so and stop pretending. Which brings me to my next point.
Second, is the cease fire talk. Israel recently told some Italian official that they are willing to cease fire provided that Hezbollah return the soldiers and get away from the south of Lebanon. To me this indicates that Israel is largely into this for the soldiers, which I disagree with. This cease-fire is only a temporary solution. You can't do a half-ass job here, excuse my language. You either do nothing and wait for a better time to eliminate Hezbollah, or do it now. Rid the world of this cancer. If you don't finish the job now, it will come back stronger later on.
Third, is the bombing in Lebanon. I want to see a list of what Israel bombed and some explanation of how the target are Hezbollah related. We can't blindly say that Israel is bombing Hezbollah targets. And we can't blindly say that they are bombing civilian/infrastructure. Unless you're a member of the IDF or Mossad or something please don't make that call and acknowledge that you don't know. However, I sure hope that they are putting some effort into minimizing civilian casualties. If I was in their shoes I would try to specifically explain why I bombed each and every site. Israel is a civilized country and should exercise reason. Hezbollah, on the other hand, don't claim to be civilized and hence are not expected to show any reason.
ps: 100 agorot = 1 sheqel
posted by MechanicalCrowds at 7:44 AM
12 Comments:
am against all this war! and of course Israel is not doing this for the soldiers but can they say that out loud? how then will they look the victim in other's eyes? and they actually do if u forget about the Arabs!
but i dont think Israel is a civilized country, how can u say that aftr all th massacres they made? they do nothing but kill ppl with no apparent reason and dont tell me they are defnding thmslves, hell no. this is like "the survival for the most powerful" and definetly neither labanon or Hizbollah are that powerful, so th civilians are the ones who r paying!
well i don't like talking in politics coz i don't understand much about it, but all i know that it has personal motifs in it more than anything else!
10:38 PM
With all respect to your point of view, i have two questions:
1.Since when have the US or Israel announced real intentions or agendas?
2.Civilized ezay ya3ny?
I am anti-violence, bas lets be fair.
12:12 AM
Please keep in mind, the media ONLY 'Make the NEWS' they do NOT 'Report the TRUTH'. This isn't speculation but experience speaking. I offer you PLEASE investigate the following violations to the Geneva Convention by the Canadian government and policing agencies on it's OWN citizens.
1.Sleepless in Victoria
2.This TOO
your humble servant
Ancient Clown
4:10 AM
Nephthys,
I too am against war & violence. But in our imperfect world, sometimes, a little violence can prevent future greater violence. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think it's true. I love Ghandi. In this imperfect world he managed get his way in such a peaceful way. However, I don't think Israel can get rid of Hezbollah that way.
I think Israel civilized. Relative to other nations at least. Mind you civilized nations do make mistakes. I think we have to step back a little bit and stop viewing Israel as this big devil. They're not angels... but nobody is. You have to realize that we were brainwashed since we were little to hate the Jews.
N,
1- Not very often. They should start now :).
2- Civilized meaning democratic, organized, advanced, educated people, good health care... etc etc . Please don't let me compare it to Egypt. They have done so in less than 60 years.
Like I said to Nephthys, I too am anti-violence.
Ancient Clown,
I agree, the media does not give us the full TRUTH. In fact, we don't know how much is true. What is the alternative though? Do you know of a trusted source that could give us more truth?
What's Canada got to do with anything??
8:41 AM
I always associate civilized with fair in my head, what you describe here for me is developed...
Yalla mesh mohem, kollo termenology, el mohem isa rabenna yostor.
9:54 AM
This is more that 3 soldiers. This is War. Up until now, Hezbollah has enjoyed a condition somewhere between war and peace. Let's call it "Little War". In Little War you get to kill a little, the other guy kills a little, you scream and yell and its so much fun and it goes on forever. The Israelis have gotten tired of Little War and moved to War.
In War, life is disrupted, people die and buildings burn, bridges collapse and nations suffer and smoke fills the sky. War is really, really bad. It is nothing like Little War. Even the bravest, most warlike of people, like the Japanese, might enjoy Little War but they learn to hate and fear War. Eventually, they fear war more than they hate the enemy. Then there is Peace. Peace, real Peace and not just Little War, is good. People live and eat and prosper and are happy. Peace is when you realize that a little land dispute like the Kurile Islands, or maybe a huge chunk of eastern Germany many times the size of Israel is just not a good reason to go back to War.
So just maybe, the Israelis are finally going to make their enemies learn what War really is, and then choose, Peace or War.
Ben
11:02 PM
Mechanical crowds:
As to #3, that would be a bad move on Israel's part. If I were in charge of Mossad/the IDF, I would not want to explain the reasoning behind each and every bombing. That would explain tactics - something that is a horrible idea.
Of course the IDF is bombing civilian infrastructure. But they are doing so, because such infrastructure is being used in times of war.
Overall: if the IDF wanted to bomb Southern Lebanon to rubble, they have the capacity to do so. The fact that there are still many (most) buildings left standing is proof in and of itself that they are using precision bombing. That said, in war, 100% accuracy is impossible.
I agree as to points #1 and 2 to a certain extent. I think that the soldiers were a catalyst for war, but at this point, it would be suicidally stupid on Israel's part to leave the job half finished, and thus, the war has gone beyond just the soldiers.
12:55 PM
Miss R,
I don't think it will compromise their tactics very much. It will just show what they already hit not what they are going to hit. Chances are Hezbollah, know what was hit anyways.
My problem is, why do you assume they have good intentions if you don't know what was bombed? Why do you assume that they are doing their best to avoid civilian casualties when there is no proof?
Yes, 100% accuracy is impossible. But there comes a point when even 90% is not good enough. A point where their target, Hezbollah, will be worth less than civilian life wasted. The question is, when is that point?
10:14 PM
*cracking fingers*
I'll start by commenting on the post, then I'll have the comments for dessert.
The Post:
1. One shouldn't be smart really in order to grasp the idea that something doesn't fit there, that they couldn't possibly go to war just for three soldiers. I mean, yeah, I could wear an israeli shoe for a sec here and think of how sorry I am for those soldiers, but I would definitely feel worse and my appetite for revenge will dig lower and lower into the ground until I can no longer see it once I realize that there are by far more lives at risk.
2. " If you don't finish the job now, it will come back stronger later on." - So basically, this is double standards. They're either in it for the soldiers or in it to be rid of Hizbullah once and for all. Your point here falls in between your opinion and your theory. I don't know if you know what Hizbullah is about. I don't know how old you were in the year 2000 when Hizbullah kicked Israel out of Lebanon for good... and I don't think knowing your age and your knowledge level about the subject counts as an arguement here, but I think that you should seriously consider going back to books or factual online sources to read about Hizbullah and how they were the only Arabic force to defeat Israel... and no.. Egypt '73 doesn't count.
3. "Israel is a civilized country and should exercise reason. Hezbollah, on the other hand, don't claim to be civilized and hence are not expected to show any reason." - That civilized country you are referring to started this mess by bombing Ghaza and the West Bank, killing innocent people, civilians... and please don't throw self defense in my face because I don't think that it'd be a valid excuse... on the other hand, the moment we acknowledge those acts as self defense the world will turn into one big circus where people can each carry a gun and start shooting. I'd suggest you start with a squirt gun. Hezbollah on the other hand, kidnapped a couple soldiers in an attempt to ask for cease fire on Ghaza and the WB and to negotiate the release of some Palistenian prisonars in Israel in exchange for those three soldiers. If you can't see that as civilized, then what is really? Blogging?!
Read: "Army chief of staff Dan Halutz has given the order to the air force to destroy 10 multi-storey buildings in the Dahaya district (of Beirut) in response to every rocket fired on Haifa," a senior air force officer told army radio on Monday. Civilized my ass!!
The Comments:
"2- Civilized meaning democratic, organized, advanced, educated people, good health care... etc etc . Please don't let me compare it to Egypt. They have done so in less than 60 years." quoting MechanicalCrowds. - So basically it's ok to trade an external value system if you have a perfectly fitting internal value system? If I provide good health care and democracy to my people would it be ok for me to shove a big middle finger into everyone else's faces? And you're giving me Egypt?! Egypt did fail in providing infrastructure, technical and moral. It did fail in making us follow beliefs and accomplish dreams. It did fail in acknowledging true talent and providing a viable democratic system for us to abide by. It did fail, throughout the generations, in creating a leader for us to follow. They were all bullshitters, they all followed a fairy tale, a shadow of the invisible. Nasser brainwashed us into thinking we were better than the rest of them, all of them. Nasser created the Germany that Hitler once created, a country so lost in its own self recognition... but Egypt still stands its ground. Egyptians still know what's right and what's wrong. Sure most of them believe everything they're being told on the news, at work, school, at cafes where they smoke the inevitable shisha that's only managed to bring this country's youth to the ground along with our west-like clubbing experience where X seems the only god worth believing in, but Egyptians still have it in them. I must say that those who rebel against things only do it to feel charismatic, the all natural high, and most of them do it just in an attempt to follow a Tyler Durden example they once saw in a Hollywood picture, but there are still people who believe.. NONE OF THEM wants to give in.. and NONE OF THEM will give up when the time comes. War is not always the answer. Egypt failed utilizing Sadat's plan in using Camp David as a truce, a 25 year long term plan to re-create an army that could once say NO without having to worry if they're gonna find out that we have no knights in shiny armors to back us up.
"I think the enemies of Israel, Hezbollah, want War. They will always prefer War untill their last breath so long as they don't get the land. They would rather have War than accept the existance of Israel and live together in Peace." - and thissss is based on.. what exactly? On the fact that they stood their ground in defending their land until the year 2000? until today? What exactly is your source of information man? enlighten me? MAD magazine? tried that man.. didn't work. I ended up eating pizza and playing video games until the new millenium marked the dawn of a new era.
Funny though, I think this war has taught me so much about the world. It's taught me this.. Life among the Arabs ain't really worth it. You never know who's worth your trust.
If we ever go to war together, please don't watch my back man, cos I sure won't trust you enough...
... and I sure won't be watching yours.
8:33 PM
MC,
Some great points in your post.
Captured soldiers are not the only reason for this war and it's been declared publically. As you say yourself, Israel is demanding removal of Hezbollah from its borders as another precondition to ceasefire. Israel just wants peace and that means peace without shellings or the threat of shellings in the North. This is particularly improtant for Olmert, because he wants to pull out from the West Bank. He won't be able to do this unless shelling from Gaza and Lebanon is stopped for good.
Having said this, everything possible must be done to return the soldier, even if the price is high. Israelis must know that their country would fight for them if it were to happen to them.
I agree that Israel should more clearly articulate selection of targets for the previous day. In some cases this may be difficult because it would compromise informers.
9:00 AM
mechanical crowds:
(I am Miss R under a new name)
Why do I think that Israel is not purposely aiming for civilians? Because there is a good explanation for everything that has been bombed thus far, and because if Israel wanted to carpet bomb, they could. They have thus far showed amazing restraint.
11:33 PM
Blessings;
The point I was trying to make was simply that even countries that are prentenders of freedom are committing the VERY SAME crimes of murder and torture right under peoples noses.
It all comes full circle with the lessons that should have been learned here
your humble servant,
ancient clown
9:49 PM
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